Regarding Ken Shamrock what is our responsibility?
Over-the-hill athletes who refuse to retire are not new a phenomena in sports in general or unique to MMA in particular. We've seen it with punch-drunk boxers since time immemorial. So, to a certain degree, what we are seeing now with Ken Shamrock isn't particularly newsworthy.
In fact, a number of members on this site have said that very same thing. For some, any ink spent discussing Shamrock's exploits in the cage is better spent covering other topics in MMA. I can't say that I would disagree. Even Kimbo Slice and Tito Ortiz are more relevant inside the cage as fighters and outside the cage as cultural phenomena than is Shamrock.
As someone who covers the sport, Shamrock is an interesting conundrum for me because he is a UFC Hall-of-Famer and a pioneer in the sport. Therefore, it does make sense to at least make note of his endeavors. On the other hand, as you've seen here at Fight Ticker, I didn't waste a lot of space on his fight. I reported that he would be fighting and I also reported the results. And, in general, I think the media has been responsible in covering Shamrock and not buying into the hype machine. Because as we all saw last night and have known for a couple of years, Shamrock is only hype now.
His performance last night was embarrassing for himself and for fans of the sport. It took more to send Bo Cantrell to the canvas against Kimbo Slice than it took for Shamrock to go down against Buzz Berry (Buzz Berry?!!!!) Shamrock looked slow and unsure of himself in the cage. He was also fighting at a three-inch and 25-pound disadvantage.
So, I ask, what is our responsibility as fans and regulatory bodies in this whole debacle? As fans, there is a curiosity factor. That's why I tuned in last night. But, we have to resist that urge. Let's not allow promoters like Gary Shaw to play into our morbid curiosity. When we buy a seat at the event or tune the television to the program, we encourage this sort of behavior.
But, it's not really the circus of the matter that bothers me most. There's a safety component involved as well. Shamrock still calls himself the "World's Most Dangerous Man" but the reality is that the only person he's a danger to right now is himself. And that's where regulatory bodies need to step in.
Ironically, Shamrock's return to action came in a country where there are no MMA regulatory bodies. I wonder if this was intentional. Would a regulatory body in the US allow a 44-year-old fighter who has now lost five in a row, several by straight-up beatdowns, to fight? I don't doubt that Shamrock can pass all the physical and medical tests needed to compete in this country. But, should there be a more intangible criteria -- one that asks if we are doing the right thing -- that also governs whether a fighter is allowed to compete?
MMA can be brutal when the matchups are not even. Do we need to see anymore from Shamrock to know this? Or are we waiting for the ultimate brutal beatdown (the one that mainstream skeptics say will inevitably occur) before we come to our senses?
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Pramit, there are so many
Pramit, there are so many athletes that hang on till the bitter end and don't realize that they are not only endangering themselves physically, but are ending their once great careers on such a low note that new fans will probably only remember the bad. A lot of today's MMA fans are new so they don't know the good that Shamrock did and the credibility he lent to the sport. All they see is a washed up over the hill man who is only proficient at taking a beat down.
What we saw last night is no different than watching Ali get beat by Trevor Berbick, or watching Mickey Mantle hang on one year too long and costing himself a career .300 average. These guys are in love with competing, they love the camaraderie of the locker room. They don't see themselves as being slower or weaker. They don't want to hear that the game has passed them by, but in reality it has, a long time ago.
We are all at fault for this. It stems down from the promoters, the trainers who keep telling these guys they can fight, the media for covering their events all the way down to the fan. As I said before it's like a bad car accident, you don't want to look but you just can't help yourself and you do it anyway. Afterwards you shake your head and ask yourself why did you bother to look at that. I stopped myself last night, I didn't want to see the pile-up, I showed restraint and maybe if more of us do, then we will not be subjected to watching this crap any longer.
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Yo KingLev I agree with your
Yo KingLev I agree with your comments.. some of these fighters have got to realize it`s not their time anymore. Guys like Holyfield, Shamrock, Abbott,etc. should read your comments they might learn something..or maybe not! Sometimes I wonder do these guys put money,ego and pressure from promoters and media ahead of their health and family. I hope it`s not too late for some of these fighters especially Holyfield.
Good points pitt dawg, I
Good points pitt dawg, I totally forgot about Holyfield. In his case I truly think its his ego. The rumor is that he & Mike Tyson will fight again. If they do you know it will sell an easy million pay-per-view's. With Tyson it is his need for money that drives him to fighting once again, that man aquandered two separate $100 million dollar fortunes, but that's another story for another time. Until we wake up and stop paying to watch these athletes perform they will still find an excuse to compete.
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Tyson vs Holyfield..wow! If
Tyson vs Holyfield..wow! If that fight happens anyone involved in that so called event should be arrested because it`s a crime! I`d rather watch Butterbean shave his head! Tyson has so many problems I don`t know where to start..and Holyfield still wants to be the undisputed heavyweight champ. It`s so messed up it`s amazing!
I have had a hard time with
I have had a hard time with this one since we are just starting to see MMA fighters past their prime. I am up and down on this issue and on the fence. I hate to see these guys compete and do bad, but the money is continually getting better for fights and I can't blame them for finally getting paid a little. Some of these guys didn't make squat in the beginning of their career. On the other hand it sucks for fans to see their favorite fighters go down hill inside an octagon.
Billy, You know, that's a
Billy,
You know, that's a very good point. I've thought about that in the past, for example with Tito Ortiz and his belief that he is a businessman first (for which I applaud him.) I should have addressed that point in this piece. It's a very valid one. Thanks for bringing it up.
Pramit
Without the few people
Without the few people that hang on too long we would not have the likes of guys like Nolan Ryan, Jerry Rice, Brett Favre and even Cal Ripkin Jr. What about George Forman in his 50's? Not the fighter he was, but still able to entertain the crowd. Nobody had a problem when Gracie, in his 40's, fought Hughes. Gracie went on to say he still had a couple of fights in him.
Yes it is too bad that some of these guys can't let go, but who is suppose to say your too old if you meet the requirements to fight? I know at 44 I still play basketball with the 20 year old guys and love to drain a 3 from downtown when they say I'm too old. What is the line between still able to get things done and washed up? Who gets to make that decision? Do you put an age limit on the sport? Do we cut short the one or two guys that are true hall-of-famers that can still fight at the end of their career?
Are we willing to take a chance that people will get hurt because they are too old? It is a fight and even younger people get killed.
brett favre hung on TOO
brett favre hung on TOO long?
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No Phoenix, Cereal Killer's
No Phoenix, Cereal Killer's list of Ryan (my idol by the way), Rice, Favre and Ripken are all players that played at a high level and we never really saw a sharp decline in their play like we do in Shamrock. Shamrock should hang em up. No one would say that about Killer's list and they never did. Heck, Favre is walking away one year too early if you ask me. They have a legit Super Bowl team there with him at the helm.
The real Cincy55 - Head of the MMAfia's Canadian Family
I did not say that. I said
I did not say that. I said if he had not played until 37 years old we would not have benifited from all the great thinkgs he did. Brett could have easily retired 3 or 4 years ago and no one would have said anything, but then we would have never got to see this last year. The gunslinger was back!!! How about the sick underarm, falling down throw in the playoffs. Magic and worth every extra year we got to see!!!!
i read your post too
i read your post too fast...sorry. i'm trying to draw, look up reference to draw, read fightticker, listen to music, post, see what's up with cbs mma boards...
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I know the truth phoenix.
I know the truth phoenix. You saw the name "Brett Favre and your mind froze. I think you might be a Farve Nutthugger? Well, join the club.
brett favre green bay
brett favre green bay packers nuthugger, yes. without a doubt. haha
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For every Brett Favre there
For every Brett Favre there are 10 Evander Holyfields. The successful middle aged athletes are far & few between. I understand that the big money is just starting to be made in MMA, but that's not a legitimate excuse K.S., he made a lot of money in the WWF before he came back to MMA and made a ton of money as coach of TUF and for taking 3 minutes worth of beatings from Tito last year.
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I'm so glad I clicked on
I'm so glad I clicked on this thread and read through it. Aged out athletes are common in virtually all sports. The differences with MMA/boxing are that they are (1) collision combat sports in which the aim of the contest is to physically harm your opponent; and (2) individual sports in which fans' curiosity can keep match-ups going, whereas in football, if you're older and not good enough to make the team, you'll generally be cut. Hence, older athletes in football who have lost their physical/mental capabilities will not be put at risk. Brett Favre, Junior Seau and so forth can keep playing because despite their age, they're good enough to excel at the highest level of competition.
As so many people have noted, K. Shamrock is just getting beat down because he probably needs the money and people will pay to see him compete. It's sad. I was told from guys I interviewed that he had huge paydays and lost it all for a variety of reasons. So it's possible he's not only stuck competing because it's part of his identity/ego, but also because he needs the money. There's no pension plan for MMA athletes, and even at the UFC levels, the fighters' purses are very small on average.
It's like Pramit said in his original post here - MMA is extra dangerous when matchups are uneven. That happens when very inexperienced fighters go against experienced guys. Likewise, it happens when aged out veterans take on young explosive prospects. In fact, academic research has shown that in MMA, injuries increase with fighters' age. Would we pay to see if the Lawrence Taylor of now could go a whole NFL football game against mostly 20-somethings? No, it would be unethical. He'd get hammered, and stand a good chance of getting injured.
But in MMA and boxing we pay to see the spectacle, despite knowing that 17% of all pro boxers end up punch drunk (with chronic traumatic brain injury). Who's paying to see Brock Lesnar throttle Mark Coleman?
David Mayeda, Ph.D.
Check us out at Fighting for Acceptance: Mixed Martial Artists and Violence in American Society!
Or buy Fighting for Acceptance by clicking here!
me...i'm contributing to the
me...i'm contributing to the problem...sorry
great post phd! it's like a 2 in 1 blog
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A lot of great points here.
A lot of great points here. It's sad that these guys keep going in order to maintain their lives after blowing their money recklessly. It happens far to often.
Godfather and all-around Mafia Aficionado
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maybe they shouldn't blow
maybe they shouldn't blow their money. that's not what i do with my cash..i spend mine.
Underboss MMAfia
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Do you blow to get your
Do you blow to get your money?
Godfather and all-around Mafia Aficionado
Co-Founder of The MMAFIA
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Hey MMAcademics, I just
Hey MMAcademics,
I just followed the link and read the 'Forward' for it. It looks like an interesting book!! I was especially intregued by the customer reviews on Barnes and Nobles's website:
"I picked this book up while looking for a gift for my grandmother's birthday. I felt totally lost and alone in my life, and was questioning a lot of things about my existence. That all changed after I read the forward to this book. Everything finally became clear for me. I kicked drugs, stopped stripping, went back to school, and now I am a very successful business woman. Thank you, Jason Miller. I owe everything to you. I plan to read the rest of this book one day also."
And
"Excellent book for use of reading indoors or outdoors. The versatility of this book amazed me. I was even able to read it in a sun porch. Which is kind of a mix between being inside and outside at the same time. Make the purchase."
With endorsments like that, who shouldn't read this book???
Haha - seriously, I ordered the book and look forward to reading it!!
what? was that real? that
what? was that real? that sounds like mayhem
would i be able to read this book upside down? would i be able to read this book with a frown? would i be able to read this book with green eggs and ham?
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Why yes you would, yes you
Why yes you would, yes you could Sam.
Godfather and all-around Mafia Aficionado
Co-Founder of The MMAFIA
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sam i am... now how did this
sam i am...
now how did this go from ken shamrock being too old to dr suess?!!!
sorry pramit...
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Head of the West Coast Family
Well, I apologize for
Well, I apologize for turning this very smart thread into a Mayhem-ridden discussion. Haha! Jason "Mayhem" Miller did write the book's forward, and apparently, on his MySpace blog, he asked his Mayhem Monkeys to write reviews on the Barnes & Nobles website, and yes, you have read the results. I doubt if any of those people even read/bought the book. (Sigh) Anyhow, I'm friends with Jason, so I can't dogg on him too much.
But the issue Pramit raised is one I address quite strongly in the latter part of Fighting for Acceptance (thanks Sixtus for buying it!). I love MMA, but I know like all organizations, it has its problems, so I think like a lot of people on this site, I'm just trying to do my little part to make MMA better....and hell, so I wrote a damn book! Pramit, he founded a website!
Check us out at Fighting for Acceptance: Mixed Martial Artists and Violence in American Society!
Or buy Fighting for Acceptance by clicking here!
does anyone remember that
does anyone remember that fight in japan (i forget against who...MAYBE don frye but i could be totally wrong) but ken shamrock says in the middle of the match "PETEY MY HEART! PETEY MY HEART!" (as in pete his cornerman) so the cornerman throws in the towel.
thats when i knew ken shamrock was done...and that was PRE-return to UFC ken shamrock which is years and years ago. time to hang it up shammy.
Is that true Papa? That goes
Is that true Papa? That goes to show you he's in it for the $$$ and nothing more. Let me show up, do as little as possible and go home.
Godfather and all-around Mafia Aficionado
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Head of the East Coast
Ken is faced with some
Ken is faced with some decision making, if hes "really" still in it for the love of fighting and not the money then he needs to step down a level that he can be competitive at, or if thats not the case, he needs to just hang up the actual fighting, and just focus on redeveloping his training methods, and reviving his stable of fighters with some of the new talent out there!!! With the evolution of the sport, and all the new, "young" talent that is emerging everyday, it is IMPOSSIBLE for "ANY" fighter to remain "King Of The Hill" forever!!! A fighter only has so many years to esablish his legacy in the ring, or cage!!! Ken had alwready established that, as being one of the founding fathers MMA!!! He is successfully RUINING that legacy everytime he gets in their and gets destroyed by whoever, fight after fight!!! Why do fighters have such a hard time coming to grips with reality, and when you have alwready reached the top, there is no where else for you to go but down!!! I myself just hit 30 this year, and I realize that I do not have forever...As long as I can remain competitive I will fight...BUT...when I know that I cant beat the competition anymore, you aint gonna see me in there getting my ass kicked fight after fight! Pride is a mother f'er!!! Sometimes its better to just go out on top!!! Besides, there are many other ways to stay involved with the sport, other than taking your over the hill ass into a cage with guys in the prime of their life, ready to maul your old ass!!!
Maybe it's not about the
Maybe it's not about the fighting as much as the marketing? Would you train at Ken's gym if he invited you and said you might have a shot at a successful (not that your not now) career? Would you remember his name if he had not been fighting in the past 10 years? Would his name even come to mind? Your correct he needs to develop fighters for his gym and maybe fighting still allows him to do that?
pat miletich hasn't fought
pat miletich hasn't fought in awhile...
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Matt Hume, Eric Paulson or
Matt Hume, Eric Paulson or Bas Rutten have not fought in a while... they all run fantastic programs and pump out great fighters... I am sure that if one spotted an aspiring fighter and encouraged them to come and train it would be hard to resist.
Trying to compete when the game has left you TOTALLY in the dust as in Shamrocks case, I believe only HURT your future marketing as you appear to be more and more of a 'joke' to your peers around you.
Actually Pat Miletich fought
Actually Pat Miletich fought last year against Renzo Gracie at an IFL event.
Godfather and all-around Mafia Aficionado
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oh...shows you how much i
oh...shows you how much i follow the IFL...or how much the IFL doesn't market their events. i never know when that thing is on
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