Fight Ticker Exclusive Interview: Dr. Benjamin discusses youth MMA, fighter safety, Fedor and more (Part One)
By Pramit Mohapatra
Dr. Johnny Benjamin is Chairman of the Department of Orthopedics, Director of the Joint Implant Center and Director of Medical Specialty Procedures Surgery Center in Vero Beach, Florida. He works with many world-class caliber athletes including NFL stars Ray Lewis and Osi Umenyiora; 4-time light heavyweight world champion, Antonio Tarver; 3-time junior welterweight and welterweight world champion, Arturo Gatti; and 4-time welterweight and super welterweight world champion, Vernon Forrest, and lightweight champion Nate Campbell.
Dr. Benjamin, a Houston native, received his bachelor’s degree from Baylor University and his medical degree from the University of Texas. He underwent his orthopedic surgery training at Temple University Hospital in Philadelphia, Pa. His 6th year of post-doctoral education was completed at the Florida Spine Institute.
Dr. Benjamin took time out of his busy schedule to speak to me by phone on Monday, April 28. Our one-hour conversation spanned a number of topics related to the medicine of MMA and fighter safety as well as non-medical topics. What follows are the highlights of the first part of the interview.
Youth MMA
FightTicker.com: What’s your stance on kids competing in MMA matches?
Dr. Benjamin: Competing, I think, over 12 years old actual competing with proper adult supervision and proper protective gear. I don’t have any problem with it at all. Training younger than that, as long as it’s always done under proper adult supervision – and when I say that I mean adults who understand the particular anatomy around children’s joints with particular interest to joint locks.
And, I wouldn’t allow any blows to the head of a grounded opponent.
If you look at those two things carefully, I think kids participating in MMA isn’t really any different than kids wrestling, kids boxing, kids in tae kwon do, kids in karate. Kids participate in those things all the time and no one seems to have a problem with it. So, when you mix them together, where’s the problem? I think it’s more of an emotional issue and it’s really a common sense one.
FightTicker.com: So, you’re drawing the line at 12 years old? Above 12, kids can participate in competition?
Dr. Benjamin: Yeah, I think 12 years old, because let’s be honest, first you need to learn some skills. Because just to throw kids out there to start competing and banging on each other when they don’t have any skills, what are they really doing? So, you start when you’re 8, 9, or 10 with training. You train for a couple of years before you start competing – it’s really no different than sparring in martial arts now.
FightTicker.com: Do you mind elaborating on the potential negative impacts on kids who do participate in MMA at an early age? Can you run down some of the major injuries you’d be worried about?
Dr. Benjamin: The one that always makes me nervous is for a child to be placed in an armbar, in a tight armbar, waiting to see if the child is going to submit. The rule should be for children participating is if you get an armbar on somebody, match is over. Don’t wait to see if you can apply enough pressure to a child to make them submit secondary to pain.
Because the problem with a child’s anatomy relative to an adult’s anatomy is especially around the elbow – but all joints – a lot of what we do consider bone really isn’t. What I mean is, the end of the humerus bone -- which is the upper bone of the arm -- and the radius and the ulna – which are the two bones of the forearm – where they come together at the elbow, a lot of that is just cartilage, it’s not turned into bone yet.
When we’re born, our skeleton is mostly cartilage – very, very plastic. Over time, the cartilage can ossify or those cartilage models turn into bone. I call that ossification – turning to bone. That becomes very, very strong. Then adolescence – 13, 14, 15, 16 years old – various cartilage models around the joints start turning into adult bone, which makes them much stronger. But, in little kids that’s not the case.
So, what can happen is that you can snap that cartilage off of the interface where the bone is still cartilage – that can be snapped right off and that’s a growth plate. The reason it’s that way is because those are growth plates. That’s where kids get their growth from. If you snap that bone off at that place you can arrest growth and a person can end up with a short arm, which would not be a good thing at all. And, they’re difficult injuries to fix. And, they don’t like screws, they don’t like pins like they get when they’re adults. We tolerate pins and screws well because we’re not growing anymore. Children don’t because you put a pin or screw to that growth plate or injure the growth plate with an armbar or falling on a skateboard…you can stop growth at that joint or alter growth at that joint, which is never a good thing.
FightTicker.com: There are two parts to this question. One part is kids probably don’t have the mental maturity to know when to submit.
Dr. Benjamin: Exactly.
FightTicker.com: The second part is the actual physical thing, and you’re saying physically to allow an armbar to happen, you’d wait until 16 or so?
Dr. Benjamin: Not an armbar to happen but an armbar to happen and the fight not being called until submission until they get mature bone. And, so that’s going to be when a child’s skeleton basically turns into an adult. So, for boys it’s going to be around 18 and for women it will be a little bit younger because they turn to bone faster.
The other thing I’d be very concerned about with kids – other than armbars and heel hooks, anything that can put pressure on a joint where you can snap the cartilage off of a joint or hurt the growth plate – is accumulation of blows to the head. Because, we really don’t understand concussions very well in adults. We definitely don’t understand it very well in a growing brain – a child.
We just surmise that it must be worse. Until we get a lot more information about that, I’d hate to see a kid get ground-and-pound.
FightTicker.com: Now, is ground-and-pound different from standing and taking a punch?
Dr. Benjamin: Well, actually, you can generate more force standing and taking a punch. But the thing about it is with the accumulation of punches. And, kids box all the time. So, if a kid stands up and they take a punch, okay so be it. Truthfully, small kids – 10, 11, 12, 13 years – they’re not going to generate enough force to cause a great deal of damage.
But, if you had a kid pinned down to the ground, getting the snot beat out of him, blow to the head, blow to the head, elbow to the head, forearm to the head – no good.
FightTicker.com: Based on what you’ve seen in kids’ MMA right now, whether it’s training or competition, are there any further preventative measures that you think should be taken or do you think it’s generally applied safely?
Dr. Benjamin: I don’t think it’s generally applied safely because the problem with it is a great deal of it’s unsupervised or supervised by your dad. And, unless your dad is Randy Couture, they aren’t [receiving] adequate supervision. Or [unless] your dad’s an orthopedic surgeon, that’s probably not adequate supervision.
What happens a lot of times with kids’ MMA is people’s emotions start overwhelming their reason. The dad’s a fan of MMA so they get some chain-link fencing, make a cage in the garage, and throw the kids in there. Once again, not unless dad’s a board-certified orthopedic surgeon or neurosurgeon or Randy Couture, it’s probably not the best idea in the world.
You’ve got kids of all different ages going up against each other and it’s probably not a great idea. To me it’s a recipe for a disaster. It taints the whole sport.
It’s the same thing as fighting karate in your own backyard versus going to a dojo under a sixth-degree black belt – two very, very different things.
Training MMA in Randy Couture’s gym, where they have some kids that train, is a very different thing than – not to knock anybody -- a guy in Missouri with a chain-link fence in his garage – let’s get ready to rumble.
FightTicker.com: Now, there’s a 10-year-old girl on the site. She has a year of wrestling experience and now she’s going to step it up a notch and start training in MMA. What are your thoughts on this?
Dr. Benjamin: Good for her. Obviously, she’s been wrestling and no one’s really had a problem with that. I’m happy for her if that’s what she wants to do. The biggest thing I’m concerned about with all children is proper supervision.
FightTicker.com: So, as we’ve already discussed, as long as she has the proper supervision and especially with respect to submissions and blows to the head, you think everything’s going to be cool?
Dr. Benjamin: Yeah, I think everything’s going to be fine. The other thing that I would do simply for kids is throw out the cage. They don’t need the cage. It will invoke too many negative feelings about it.
Just use the round wrestling mat that has the circle. If the child leaves the circle, they are deducted a point. You don’t really need to pin a kid up against the cage and ground-and-pound them.
Gloves
FightTicker.com: Now, I wanted to switch topics and talk a little about the gloves in boxing versus MMA. I think one thing is clarifying some of the basics. Can you elaborate on why one massive hit to the head that KO’s an MMA artist is less harmful than many softer blows to the head that don’t result in a KO for a boxer?
Dr. Benjamin: Part of the problem is the assumption that a boxer’s punches are softer. They’re actually harder. And, the reason I say that is because one of the things that we found in sports is that the more padding you give the athlete the more of a blow that they can deliver.
The reason that they pad the hands more is to protect the puncher’s hand – it’s to protect the person delivering the blow. It’s not to protect the person receiving the blow.
So, what happens is, you make the gloves larger, the person can deliver blows with greater force.
FightTicker.com: Just to piggyback off that, does the fact that now you’re talking about larger gloves and larger surface area, does that play a role as well?
Dr. Benjamin: Well, it certainly does. If you look at simple high school physics, force equals mass times acceleration. The mass of the glove went from five ounces to ten ounces, the acceleration is the same. So, you’ve doubled the amount of force with just using a ten ounce glove versus a five ounce MMA glove.
And, there’s a lot of things that have to do with people delivering and receiving the punches. There’s a lot of differences between boxing and MMA that people don’t truly appreciate. That has to do a lot with technique. One thing that you’ll see boxers do is boxers are always taught, you don’t leave your chin hanging out in the air, you tuck your chin. Because the last thing you want is to get hit on your chin and get knocked out.
But, the problem for MMA is try to walk around in MMA being prepared to spar with your chin tucked down. Hard to do. An MMA athlete has so many more things than a boxer to consider from competing because a boxer doesn’t have to worry about a foot coming at him or a takedown. Or a spinning backfist or any of the things that an MMA artist must be concerned about at all times. So, their stance is different.
An MMA artist is going to stand square because they can’t fight like a boxer – one foot leading the other – because you’re going to get a single-leg takedown. They’re going to shoot on that leg all day long or kick it to death. So, an MMA artist is going to stand far more square with their feet shoulder-width apart because they’re not giving you anything to take. The problem with that is you make yourself very vulnerable to a strike.
Boxers, they always say, “Don’t square up.” That means keep one shoulder ahead of the other one and keep one foot in front of the other, so you’re presenting a smaller target. MMA if you do that, they’re going to take that leg all day long.
FightTicker.com: So, it sounds to me like you’re saying the striking in MMA could actually be a little more harmful than for a boxer.
Dr. Benjamin: No, no, no. I think once again it’s accumulation of punches. Perfect example – and one I’ve used many times – first let’s go with [Kelly] Pavlik and Jermaine Taylor, their fight in April. Went to 12 rounds, went the distance, 36 minutes. Kelly Pavlik landed 278 head blows, Jermaine Taylor landed 164. That’s from CompuBox.
[Cheick] Kongo against [Heath] Herring – UFC 82 – between the two of them, they landed six standing head blows. So, once again accumulation of punches. You have 400 head blows compared to six. Who stands the most chance of significant brain injury?
The other thing that makes MMA safer than boxing is that because of their stance, they’re more likely to take a hit on the chin and get knocked out – that’s certainly true – but they’re usually flash knockouts. When was the last time you saw a guy in MMA go down and stay down? They go down incapacitated, fight’s over.
As soon as he can’t effectively, intelligently defend himself, fight’s over. A boxer can go down for nine seconds as long as he can get up and step back towards the ref he can continue to catch a beating. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen fights that have 3, 4, 5 knockdowns in them. Guy getting pummeled…for boxing.
So, in many ways MMA is much safer than boxing. And, most of it has to do with sheer accumulation of blows.
FightTicker.com: So, you’re basically saying the larger the glove the more of an impact it’s going to carry?
Dr. Benjamin: Right, the thing you have to remember is those gloves are to protect the person delivering the blows, not to protect the person receiving them. So, the more padding you put on the hand, I can hit harder now without being concerned about damaging my hand.
Making the sport safer for fighters
FightTicker.com: As a professional, at what point would you say, “That’s it, you’re done” meaning we see it in hockey and in football where guys get three or four concussions and they’re done. MMA fighters appear to at least get knocked out more often. When is an MMA fighter done with his career?
Dr. Benjamin: Well see, that’s part of the problem with MMA. MMA really lets outside organizations police them instead of policing themselves. What I mean by that is there’s simple, obvious things that MMA could do to police itself.
What of the large MMA sanctioning bodies have a medical advisory panel? None that I know of. So, really what they’re most concerned about is doing things that fill seats. Not really doing things that promote the health and well-being of their competitors. And, that’s truly their greatest asset. Without that talent, they’re nothing. So, you should protect the talent. But, I don’t know any of them that have a medical advisory board. UFC, EliteXC, WEC, pick one. None that I’m aware of.
Been on all their Web sites looking for them. None that I’m aware of. So, simply what should happen is what’s starting to happen in the NFL after great controversy and that’s neuro-cognitive testing. And, what that basically is is a computerized test that – pick a sanctioning body, UFC, pick one, should have every one of their fighters take this test. It doesn’t take long to do. You sit down and mostly it’s a memory test and simple mathematics. Simple tests to see, is your brain functioning?
Anytime during that year – and you should have to take that test once a year – if at any time during that year you’re knocked out, you have to re-take that test. And, you can’t participate again until your score returns back to normal for you. There’s no standard normal for everybody. So, if I take the test and my score on the test is an 83 and you take the test and your score is a 93, we don’t average the two together and say, “Oh, okay 83 and 93, we’re good.” No. I get knocked out [and] I should have to get back to an 83 before I’m allowed to compete again. You get knocked out [and] you should have to get back to a 93 before you’re allowed to compete again.
When you can no longer get back to that number, now someone on that medical advisory board that doesn’t exist for any of the major brands that I know of should start limiting your ability to fight. You shouldn’t wait for a state athletic commission to tell you how to run your business.
FightTicker.com: You’re putting the onus on the promotions rather than the athletic commissions?
Dr. Benjamin: They’re the ones making all the money. Absolutely. It’s the same onus that I put on – if you check the internet – on the NFL. They’re making all the money. They should pay for the tests -- it’s not particularly expensive – and have the test administered. You log onto a Web site and take the test. It’s not hard. And, that keeps people from going to their local doctor and letting their doctor clear them because the doctor’s a buddy or a fan or they gave the doctor five tickets to the next fight. Which unfortunately happens.
That’s purely objective. You go on and until your test normalizes for you – until you get back to what your number should be – you don’t fight.
FightTicker.com: Now, we know that fans love to see knockouts and that MMA promoters reward fighters for standing and banging even if they lose. What can be done to better educate MMA fans and corners so that fighters aren’t encouraged to continue competing in a match after sustaining a head injury that is concussive in nature but doesn’t knock that fighter out?
Dr. Benjamin: Well, I think what you have to do is – I don’t think you’re going to get a lot of compliance or participation from corners or from the fighter. Because the fighters have put so much into that preparation and they’re not looking to lose. If they think they can get out there and compete, they’re going to get out there and compete.
What you have to do is have better ringside physicians. I’ve seen events before where I know for a fact the ringside physician is a pediatrician. And, not to knock pediatricians – I have lots of friends who are pediatricians. But, what is a pediatrician going to tell you about an adult combat athlete? I don’t think there’s a whole lot of training in their schooling for that. But, in the state of Florida, where I live, all you have to do is have a valid medical license.
I’ve seen some states where I knew for a fact the ringside physician was a chiropractor. Nothing against chiropractors but they’re not a medical doctor. It happened they were friends with the promoter.
Really, you need an outside objective party and that’s got to be the ringside physician but the ringside physicians need to be properly trained.
FightTicker.com: Financially, it’s difficult for promoters in the smaller MMA organizations across the country to provide adequate safety measures for fighters, such as insurance, multiple doctors on site, sufficient pre- and post-fight check-ups, experienced referees, etc. In addition to this, the fighters are generally not as experienced and not as adept at defending themselves. How can these concerns be alleviated so that even these smaller organizations provide a safe environment for fighters?
Dr. Benjamin: Well, I think the very first thing to do to make a safer environment for fighters and more interesting bouts for fans is limit the time of the match. Because guys who don’t have a great deal of skill don’t need to be out there forever. What I would love to see happen is for say guys with less than five fights – basically novices, they may be professionals but they’re just getting into the sport on that level -- instead of three rounds, instead of having five-minute rounds like many of them do and we always see guys gas – they look terrible in the second round because the first round depleted them.
Have the first two rounds [as] three-minute rounds and the last round [as] a one-minute round. Because, let’s be honest, most of the time you’ve figured out who’s going to win this fight before you ever get to the third round. And, if both of them have a round apiece then you guys got one minute to figure this out.
Tired fighters are susceptible to injury. They do not defend well. So, you’re taking guys with limited skill who are now tired – much more likely to be injured. And, that’s a simple, objective way to limit their exposure to injury.
Five is an arbitrary number. Maybe the number’s ten [fights]. I don’t know what it is. You got a guy whose 1-2 fighting a guy who’s 2-0, ooh they don’t need to be out there forever. They don’t have skills to be out there forever. And, they probably don’t have cardiovascular fitness to be out there forever.
The other thing is mismatched opponents. Perfect example that I use is New Year’s Eve last year, Fedor Emelianenko, who people say is the greatest pound-for-pound fighter which I disagree with, fought Hong-Man Choi. Fedor was 26-0 [actually 27-1 going into that bout, according to Wikipedia]. Hong-Man Choi was 1-0. How is that an interesting fight?
I mean, if he wasn’t 7’9” [actually 7’2” according to Wikipedia], how would that be an interesting fight? If you saw the fight, it wasn’t an interesting fight. Fedor submitted him in no time at all. Surprise, surprise.
Best pound-for-pound fighters
FightTicker.com: Just of curiosity, who do you think is the number one pound-for-pound fighter?
Dr. Benjamin: Anderson Silva.
FightTicker.com: Where would you put Georges St. Pierre on that list?
Dr. Benjamin: GSP. Love him. I’d put a couple of people higher than Fedor for the simple reason – Fedor’s not active.
FightTicker.com: Yeah, he’s not fighting anyone.
Dr. Benjamin: No. He’s not fighting anybody. He’s trying to figure out how to get two million for a fight but fighting no one. And, when he fought guys – name guys – they were much smaller than him.
Maybe he has tremendous skills and everyone seems to think so – and people that know a lot more about MMA than I do – but, you know what, if you’re the best, let’s see it sometime.
I’ll give you my list: Anderson Silva, fantastic talent and fights; GSP, as we saw the other night fantastic talent and fights; BJ Penn; a guy that I really love that people probably wouldn’t put as high on the list as I would, I see a young guy like Urijah Faber – wouldn’t that kid do well.
Look for part two of this interview next week on FightTicker.com.
OUTSTANDING interview. Was
OUTSTANDING interview. Was much better than the one on MMAJunkie (not to knock MMAJunkie, but this first half had much more depth). I really liked his suggestion on shortening the rounds for novice fighters, and the information on kids' joints was quite interesting. I noticed his comment about the chiropracter being a promoter's friend on site of a MMA match as the ringside doctor as well - very telling of the dangers most people don't consider. And he clearly knows the MMA game; his comments on mismatches were great. Why is Jason Miller, who has ~25 fights, taking on an opponent in DREAM who has like 2 fights (or around there)? I wish I'd had this interview available before 6 months ago. Can't wait for "round two!"
Pramit, hope you blast this
Pramit, hope you blast this out to other MMA sites and some pick it up. Okay, I need to sleep.
He brings up a good point
He brings up a good point about supervision, I think that is the key to any sport working. Here is a link to "Eric Swick's" Pro Elite profile, he is the one who will be training the brats. lol
http://swickmma.proelite.com/
EERS_1_Fan
Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol
I was talking with my
I was talking with my neurologist about the elbows in MMA, and it just so happens he is some what of a fan. His opinion is, and I can't quote him because I don't remember his exact words.
Stitches come out in 7-10 days, but closed head injures take years to heal, and sometimes never do.
EERS_1_Fan
Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol
Pramit....you get a gold
Pramit....you get a gold star for this one
Oh, one thing. Dr. Benjamin
Oh, one thing. Dr. Benjamin asked how many major KO's we'd seen in MMA. Actually, I immediately thought of 3 wicked ones just in the UFC pretty recently: Speer (KO'd by Johnson), Quarry (KO'd by Franklin), and Cro-Cop (KO'd by Gonzaga). I'm sure numerous other ones have happened in smaller organizations across the country that are untelevised. I think it's good for MMA proponents to admit the sport is dangerous, and proportionally, these types of knockouts are probably more common in MMA than in football or hockey (not sure about boxing). I dislike how people use boxing as the measuring stick in this argument over sporting safety. Boxing is extremely unsafe in terms of long-term head trauma; we're setting the bar so low in terms of comparative safety status. So boxing gets an "F" grade in terms of head safety...so we're better than an "F". Big deal.
Heath Herring really put it
Heath Herring really put it on that dude who kissed him.
EERS_1_Fan
Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol
MMAcademics , knowing how
MMAcademics , knowing how post concussion syndrome works, how many times do you think a person shoould need to suffer a head injury no matter how minor before hanging it up?
EERS_1_Fan
Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol
That extra (o) is my brain
That extra (o) is my brain injury telling on me LMAO!
EERS_1_Fan
Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol
MMAcademics wrote: I
I dislike how people use boxing as the measuring stick in this argument over sporting safety. Boxing is extremely unsafe in terms of long-term head trauma; we're setting the bar so low in terms of comparative safety status. So boxing gets an "F" grade in terms of head safety...so we're better than an "F". Big deal.
Academics, it's a valid point. I think the only reason the comparison is made is because the goals of both boxing and mma are similar and the argument is that if boxing is accepted by mainstream, why isn't mma?
Dr. Benjamin addresses some of the superficial aspects of mma that potentially turn mainstream spectators off in part two...
Hey EERS, I will answer your
Hey EERS, I will answer your question as best as I can, but my expertise is in sociology. When I did the research for Ch. 2 of my book on sporting injuries, I was learning as I went along. One trend I remember about the research on concussions is that the younger someone is when s/he sustains one, the more susceptible s/he is to getting subsequent ones and the easier it is for a subsequent concussion to be more severe. Medical doctors say youths' skulls and the musculature in their necks are less developed, so not only are they more prone to getting concussions, but they tend to be worse than for adults. But the trend held true for adults too - after gettting a grade 3 concussion (the worst kind), it's easier to get a subsequent one. I can't believe Trent Green keeps getting picked up by NFL teams. In my opinion, he should not be allowed in the league. Keeping in mind that I am not a medical doctor, if I had to choose a number of grade 3 concussions (I know you said "minor"; I can't answer that) someone sustained before hanging it up, I would say two. NFL retirees who reported three or more concussions had a significantly greater chance of being severely depressed in their older days for no apparent reason. There's a really great article in the New York Times on girls and concussions by A. Schwartz (October 2, 2007, page A1, A20); it might be good for you and MMABrat to check it out.
Correct me if I am wrong but
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the UFC use that head test he was talking about? The you score 85...thing? I thought i remembered Dana taking that test in the infamous "Dana vs Tito" fiasco.
BTW great interview...really
BTW great interview...really informative.
I respect the doctor's
I respect the doctor's opinion in terms of the medical information. He's definitely studied the nature of the sport and the kineseology involved. However, he doesn't really know much of anything about fighting, and so it's strange to hear him talk about the Fedor fight in the dismissive way that he does. What he is blathering about is really pack mentality, and I'm not really impressed. (he doesn't even know who Hong Man Choi is)
Good interview, Pramit. My problem, obviously, is not with you and not with the medical expertise of the doctor. He's a smart guy, this sport just isn't what he knows.
IronMan, welcome
IronMan, welcome aboard!
Fair enough. Dr. Benjamin is clearly a huge fan of the sport. But, the real value he brings to the table is his medical expertise on the subject. The discussion about Fedor was just a nice diversion to add color to his thoughts. What he thinks of Fedor is certainly debatable.
I think part two is actually better. I should have it up next week...
i'd say alot of people have
i'd say alot of people have no clue who hong man choi is. he's only fought twice in MMA so i'd actually be surprised if a full-time doctor had time to keep track of MMA newcomers.
I'm not quite sure why some
I'm not quite sure why some people choose to dismiss my personal opinions about some elite level MMA participants as merely uninformed. By definition, all opinons are debatable. The friendly exchange of ideas or opinions is what makes this medium enjoyable. Without question Fedor is extemely talented but I prefer for the so-called PFP king to be more active and show his goods.
My relevant point about the Fedor vs. Choi contest is simply that allowing combatants with grossly dissimilar experience to compete against each other is a recipe for injury. Obviously Choi's expertise/experience in other disciplines of martial arts did not serve him very well in that particular mma contest. I do not think it is a gross mischaracterization to call that contest a mismatch.
I certainly do not claim to be an expert historian of this sport that we all seem to enjoy. But I would definitely not be appropriately classified as a neophyte when it comes to combat sports in general or mma in particular.
" He doesn't know anything about fighting"...interesting comment
FYI- I am 6' 3" 205 lbs from Houston, Texas and spent 5 years in North Philadelphia. Contrary to MOST surgeons, I did not grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth....been a long time since anyone kicked my ass.
Johnny Benjamin MD
Dr Benjamin, I'm glad you
Dr Benjamin,
I'm glad you joined our site and decided to mix it up with us. The 10 year old girl mentioned in the interview "MMA Brat" is my daughter, and we really valued your opinion on youth's and their limits.
Now on to your opinion about Fedor. Everyone has their own views, thats why they are called views. I for one don't think anyone over 185 pounds should be in the P4P rankings.
EERS_1_Fan
Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol
Dr. Benjamin wrote: I'm not
I'm not quite sure why some people choose to dismiss my personal opinions about some elite level MMA participants as merely uninformed. By definition, all opinons are debatable. The friendly exchange of ideas or opinions is what makes this medium enjoyable. Without question Fedor is extemely talented but I prefer for the so-called PFP king to be more active and show his goods.
My relevant point about the Fedor vs. Choi contest is simply that allowing combatants with grossly dissimilar experience to compete against each other is a recipe for injury. Obviously Choi's expertise/experience in other disciplines of martial arts did not serve him very well in that particular mma contest. I do not think it is a gross mischaracterization to call that contest a mismatch.
I certainly do not claim to be an expert historian of this sport that we all seem to enjoy. But I would definitely not be appropriately classified as a neophyte when it comes to combat sports in general or mma in particular.
" He doesn't know anything about fighting"...interesting comment
FYI- I am 6' 3" 205 lbs from Houston, Texas and spent 5 years in North Philadelphia. Contrary to MOST surgeons, I did not grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth....been a long time since anyone kicked my ass.
Johnny Benjamin MD
Dr. Benjamin,
Thanks for coming on. I agree with you on Fedor and the freak show that is Hong-Man Choi so you won't find any quarrel with me.
As you rightly point out these are all opinions so IronMan can't fairly judge your MMA knowledge based on your feelings about Fedor. I imagine he's a Fedor fan, took your comments personally and overreacted.
IronMan wrote: However, he
However, he doesn't really know much of anything about fighting, and so it's strange to hear him talk about the Fedor fight in the dismissive way that he does. What he is blathering about is really pack mentality, and I'm not really impressed. (he doesn't even know who Hong Man Choi is)
I am probably one of the very few 'Fedor fans' on this site posting regularily... in 2005-2006 he WAS the most dominate fighter in the world but in two years he has not done squat.
Taking fights like Choi is little more than something like the Pittsburg Steelers playing the Austrailan National Rugby team in an American style football game. Those are tough SOBs in Aussi-land and it would be fun to watch, but it would do nothing to prove they are the world champs or as dominante as they were two years ago - it would be little more than a freakshow (not to mention a mismatch and questionable to even allow those guys to play them for thier own safety) and only noteworthy if somehow they won. It shouldn't count towards thier record and not even acknowledged as a statistical match any different than a pre-season game should.
BTW - Dr. Benjamin/Pramit - I really enjoyed the interview. I am looking forward to part 2! I am curious though about something Eers questioned... does the UFC already do that scoring test?
Edit: One more (two-part) question (should have sent this to Pramit ahead of time!!) Would you consider Pankration 'MMA' or simply a 'MA' like TKD? And (assuming you are familiar with Pankration) the tourneys held for youths - under the general California Pankration tournament rules, would you consider those 'acceptable' for youths?
DR. Benjamin...i wouldn't
DR. Benjamin...i wouldn't worry about what one or two people say about your opinions. you gave a great, informed interview. keep on with the good interviews and the good posts. we all look forward to hearing from you again.
I guess I should apologize
I guess I should apologize for the comments about Dr. Benjamin, I shouldn't have gotten so personal. I'm sorry about that, man. Still, I want to explain where I'm coming from and what I mean.
The Choi vs. Fedor fight was a mismatch, and we knew that long before it happened. It's not the characterization of the fight that I have a problem with, it's the characterization of Choi as a big, skill-less fighter with no draw apart from the fact that he's 7'2. We are talking about a guy who's won't almost 20 kickboxing matches and has legit standup skills from a technical perspective.
As far as the characterization of Fedor's inactivity goes, different people construe that different ways. I tend to think that the fight with Sylvia will change all of that and, if Fedor finishes Sylvia (and he will), then I'll have no problem calling him the #1 heavyweight in the world again.
In calling Anderson Silva the top pound-for-pound fighter in the world, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and it's one that's legitimate. I tend to think that BJ Penn is, purely on the basis that he has been incredibly successful outside of his weight class.
I'll give a point by point deconstruction later, so that you understand what I mean, but I did want to get that apology out there so people don't think I'm a monstrous douchebag who doesn't respect people's opinions. Don't get me wrong, I can be a monstrous douchebag, but I respect people's opinions.
I just want to provide some
I just want to provide some background on the stuff I disagree with Dr. Benjamin about, some of it I care about, some I just don’t think is quite right.
His proposal to change fight length for newer fighters:
“Have the first two rounds [as] three-minute rounds and the last round [as] a one-minute
round. Because, let’s be honest, most of the time you’ve figured out who’s going to win this fight before you ever get to the third round. And, if both of them have a round apiece then you guys got one minute to figure this out.”
Apart from the fact that the three minute round format was vetoed in MMA because it completely kills the grappler’s ability to finish fights off of his back (having to break your opponent down and work takes time if your opponent has anywhere near your caliber of grappling), changing the length of rounds based on the experience of the fighters involved changes the entire context of the sport. Like boxing, most MMA promotions have agreed to change the number of rounds for title fights and, while I have no problem with changing the number of rounds in MMA (the two round format would work fine for me for up-and-comers, though I’m not sure it needs to be changed at all), it dramatically shifts the way fighters train.
It’s not fair to the fighters to shift their training based on the rules of their fights. If anything, we should be aiming for more uniformity in round length, because it ensures that fighters will be able to focus on one format their entire career, not have to rethink their style of fighting every matchup because they have to adjust to the round length.
“Tired fighters are susceptible to injury. They do not defend well. So, you’re taking guys with limited skill who are now tired – much more likely to be injured. And, that’s a simple, objective way to limit their exposure to injury.”
Obviously, this is a basic rule of athletics. I’m a firm believer that the fighters should be responsible for their own conditioning and not that the sport should change to accommodate undconditioned fighters. They don’t change the length of a football game to keep linemen from running out of breath. (though I guess that the linemen get substitutions, but you get my point)
“Five is an arbitrary number. Maybe the number’s ten [fights]. I don’t know what it is. You got a guy whose 1-2 fighting a guy who’s 2-0, ooh they don’t need to be out there forever. They don’t have skills to be out there forever. And, they probably don’t have cardiovascular fitness to be out there forever.”
Why not? Plenty of guys have been fighting on the big stage for a long time. The athletes are supposed to push themselves against each other anyway, not against the clock. If their cardio really is that bad, then they’ll get finished.
If you are worried about boring fights, that’s what smaller shows are for. They don’t have the same quality of fights, and it gives these guys a chance to test themselves where we don’t have to pay nearly as much, and don’t get quite as impressive a product.
“The other thing is mismatched opponents. Perfect example that I use is New Year’s Eve last year, Fedor Emelianenko, who people say is the greatest pound-for-pound fighter which I disagree with, fought Hong-Man Choi. Fedor was 26-0 [actually 27-1 going into that bout, according to Wikipedia]. Hong-Man Choi was 1-0. How is that an interesting fight?
I mean, if he wasn’t 7’9” [actually 7’2” according to Wikipedia], how would that be an interesting fight? If you saw the fight, it wasn’t an interesting fight. Fedor submitted him in no time at all. Surprise, surprise.”
This is the part I got in trouble for.
I don’t like it when people are dismissive of Choi because he’s big. He’s won plenty of kickboxing matches and still gets billed in K-1 purely on his size. He’s a technically sound fighter and should be dismissed any more than Mark Hunt, who has always been billed as having a head made of bricks. (Hunt, by the way, is an incredibly technical kickboxer, too)
I’m not going to defend the matchup, because I think that it was a mismatch typical of the Japanese shows. However, I think that it’s important to remember that Choi has kickboxing skills and showcased them in the fight. Whatever the speed of Fedor’s finish, Choi’s striking doesn’t get any respect.
Honestly, when I read pieces like this, I can’t help but feel like Choi is the Rodney Dangerfield of MMA. Just no respect.
There is, though, an argument to be made for Fedor’s inactivity, and I’ll get to that in a second.
“FightTicker.com: Just of curiosity, who do you think is the number one pound-for-pound fighter?
Dr. Benjamin: Anderson Silva.
FightTicker.com: Where would you put Georges St. Pierre on that list?
Dr. Benjamin: GSP. Love him. I’d put a couple of people higher than Fedor for the simple reason – Fedor’s not active.”
Obviously, the doc’s opinions are what they are. I’m not going to rag on him for having them, or for the fact that these are only mainstream guys he’s mentioning. There’s a reason why Silva and GSP are mainstream, because they’re very, very good.
I tend to rank BJ as #1 pound-for-pound, but that’s just because I think that if he were 200 pounds fighting at 185, he’d kill Anderson, and if he were 190 cutting down to 170 (instead of 160 coming up to that weight), he’d kill St. Pierre. That’s just my opinion, though.
“[Fedor]’s not fighting anybody. He’s trying to figure out how to get two million for a fight but fighting no one. And, when he fought guys – name guys – they were much smaller than him.
Maybe he has tremendous skills and everyone seems to think so – and people that know a lot more about MMA than I do – but, you know what, if you’re the best, let’s see it sometime.
I’ll give you my list: Anderson Silva, fantastic talent and fights; GSP, as we saw the other night fantastic talent and fights; BJ Penn; a guy that I really love that people probably wouldn’t put as high on the list as I would, I see a young guy like Urijah Faber – wouldn’t that kid do well.”
Fair enough. Fedor will fight Sylvia and if he finishes Big Tim (and I believe he will), then I’ll have no problem calling him the #1 heavyweight again.
My problem is that first statement: “When he fought [name guys] they were smaller than him.” Because Nogueira is Fedor’s size (actually taller) and CroCop and Fedor are roughly the same size. Then you have Hunt, who I consider a top ten guy, who outweighs Fedor by 20 pounds.
Then you have the pack that Fedor competed against coming up. Big guys like Schilt and Herring and Coleman, all of whom are at least 250. (also, those guys are big name guys and were at the time Fedor fought them)
It’s a little bit weird when you look at the way that Fedor dominated Nogueira, and the way that Nogueira dominated the UFC contender he was supposed to fight, that there is any doubt about Fedor’s ranking, though the inactivity acts as an excuse, and it’s one that people have used with Fedor and Barnett (though Barnett just killed Yoshida, so he’s back).
Frankly, the level of competition in Pride at the time was so much higher that I want to see it demonstrated that there is someone better than Fedor. People are calling for Couture, and I’d love to see that fight. Couture didn’t finish Sylvia (he could have, realistically) and Nogueira did, so I have thoughts on the idea of Fedor matching up with Couture (plus it’s a bad machup for Randy stylistically).
My problem with dismissing Fedor is that the Dr. doesn’t look at Fedor’s skills and doesn’t acknowledge them. The paper based analysis is fine, but it’s rarely right. I’m not saying I’m infallible, or that my opinions are right, but I like to think that looking at more than how often the guy fights will tell me something more about the fighter.
i want to hear the rest of
i want to hear the rest of the interview...good to have the doc on the site
Underboss MMAfia
Head of the West Coast Family
ULTIMATE CHALLENGE CHAMPION UFC 83
Dr. Benjamin is not a fight
Dr. Benjamin is not a fight analyst; it's not what he does for a living. He is a highly accomplished medical doctor. I think Pramit asked him questions on who the best pound-for-pound fighter is more for fun and change of pace. If people want to get into deep, technical criticism of Dr. Benjamin's opinions, it should be of his comments regarding medical treatment and fighter safety. People bring different perspectives and expertise to this and other MMA websites. My guess is Dr. Benjamin is more engrossed in his medical practice and treating his patients than he is analyzing various MMA fights and fighters. That doesn't mean his opinions on things like the Fedor-Choi match are incorrect; more importantly, that statement was provided as an example of a larger, very serious problem in MMA regarding mismatches and safety.
MMAcademics wrote: Dr.
Dr. Benjamin is not a fight analyst; it's not what he does for a living. He is a highly accomplished medical doctor. I think Pramit asked him questions on who the best pound-for-pound fighter is more for fun and change of pace. If people want to get into deep, technical criticism of Dr. Benjamin's opinions, it should be of his comments regarding medical treatment and fighter safety. People bring different perspectives and expertise to this and other MMA websites. My guess is Dr. Benjamin is more engrossed in his medical practice and treating his patients than he is analyzing various MMA fights and fighters. That doesn't mean his opinions on things like the Fedor-Choi match are incorrect; more importantly, that statement was provided as an example of a larger, very serious problem in MMA regarding mismatches and safety.
Well Put!
EERS_1_Fan
Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol
i concur with eers and
i concur with eers and academics.
btw i just bought your book academics...it better be good! (once it's mailed to me in 3 days)
Underboss MMAfia
Head of the West Coast Family
ULTIMATE CHALLENGE CHAMPION UFC 83
guys...the main event of UFC
guys...the main event of UFC 87 is in...iron man vs. dr. benjamin in a 5 round championship fight.
i will be looking forward to
i will be looking forward to it.
Underboss MMAfia
Head of the West Coast Family
ULTIMATE CHALLENGE CHAMPION UFC 83
Good morning Spartans, This
Good morning Spartans,
This site is bananas. I will assure you that I thoroughly enjoy the give and take. The fund of knowledge that is shared on this site is truly second to none.
In my opinion, Pankration is clearly MMA and more than likely one of, if not THE, cornerstones of this movement. I like the concept of scoring points vs. inflicting damage in regards to youth participation. Also the lack of closed fist head strikes is appealing from a medical standpoint. But with the emphasis on joint locks and the susceptibility of immature bones (kids) to serious growth plate injuries proper supervision and adequate training of those supervisors needs to be paramount. In youth participation, I favor scoring systems that strongly favor point accumulation over inflicting pain i.e. KO's and tapouts. Kids should be focused on acquiring skills and overall fitness.
" Spartan...either return carrying your shield or on it"
much respect,
Johnny Benjamin MD
UFC 87 betting line
Benjamin -1800 v Ironman +2000
FYI- that's for the first 30 seconds ...not much gas left in this tank!!
haha! that's a classic
haha! that's a classic post...he gave betting odds.
i'm going with dr. benjamin with a reverse flying heel hook in the 1st round.
Dr Benjamin, I will ask you
Dr Benjamin, I will ask you the same question that I have asked everyone else in the free world lol. Pankration had Wrestling, Boxing, and Submissions.
Every other martial art was derived from those 3, Why do people act as if MMA is a new thing?
EERS_1_Fan
Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol
EERS_1_Fan, A very well
EERS_1_Fan,
A very well known national magazine polled US teens and asked the simple question "Who was Benjamin Franklin?". 86% answered that he was a past President of the USA. Need I say more?
My personal belief is that promoters due a particularly poor job educating the general public about modern MMA and even worse about its ancient history. A very well known and knowledgeable boxing expert recently told me that promoters are businessmen nothing more. Their objective is to put as many butts in seats and generate as many ppv buys as is humanly possible while spending as little money as is allowed by law to accomplish this singular goal.
I believe that educating the general public to the artistic, in a sporting sense, and historical perspective of MMA will broaden and solidify the fan base; which will appeal to a greater number of potential sponsors and ultimately pay tremendous long term ROI.
Promoters apparently see this movement as a fad and prefer the quick buck.
Now I'll temporarily get off of my soap box....please pardon the rant.
Johnny Benjamin MD
eers, not to put words in
eers, not to put words in his mouth but i would say it's mostly because pankration was mostly in japan, and didn't have a cage.
Dr. Benjamin wrote: Good
Good morning Spartans,
This site is bananas. I will assure you that I thoroughly enjoy the give and take. The fund of knowledge that is shared on this site is truly second to none.
In my opinion, Pankration is clearly MMA and more than likely one of, if not THE, cornerstones of this movement. I like the concept of scoring points vs. inflicting damage in regards to youth participation. Also the lack of closed fist head strikes is appealing from a medical standpoint. But with the emphasis on joint locks and the susceptibility of immature bones (kids) to serious growth plate injuries proper supervision and adequate training of those supervisors needs to be paramount. In youth participation, I favor scoring systems that strongly favor point accumulation over inflicting pain i.e. KO's and tapouts. Kids should be focused on acquiring skills and overall fitness.
" Spartan...either return carrying your shield or on it"
much respect,
Johnny Benjamin MD
UFC 87 betting line
Benjamin -1800 v Ironman +2000
FYI- that's for the first 30 seconds ...not much gas left in this tank!!
Once we hit the mat, it's looking good for me, and you're going to look like Brock fighting Frank Mir. Bigger and older you may be, but the Rule of Gracie has got my back. lol
I do agree with you about Pankration, though. Even in Jiu-Jitsu, we put alot of emphasis on protecting the joints (because that's really all we have to worry about), and we're quick to end matches where a sub looks like it's sunk in.
Realistically, there are lots of things that can go wrong, and as an adult, those things are something that we are aware of in training and competition, with kids, it becomes the adult's responsibility (both legally and just out of general ethics) to look out for the kid who may not make the right call and may get hurt.
I am curious though, what you think of the leglock vs. armlock debate. Are leglocks actually more dangerous than armlocks?
Josh "The IronMan" Stein
PapaBalsamo wrote: eers,
eers, not to put words in his mouth but i would say it's mostly because pankration was mostly in japan, and didn't have a cage.
But that would fit better if it was called cage fighting rather than Mixed Martial Arts, right? The guys who fought in Pride and Bodog were Mixed Martial Artists right?
EERS_1_Fan
Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol